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Saellys
Vintage Newbie


robotjellyfish wrote:
Saellys wrote:
I hate Amazon song previews. Whoever thought thirty second snippets could give you a realistic idea of how the song sounds should be smacked, and these are so compressed they're nigh unlistenable. I am rendered about as excited for the album as I was before I clicked the link, because I still have no idea how it's going to sound.


Downerrrrrrrrrrrrrr.


Realityyyyyyyyyyy.

wilsmith wrote:
Saellys wrote:
I hate Amazon song previews. Whoever thought thirty second snippets could give you a realistic idea of how the song sounds should be smacked, and these are so compressed they're nigh unlistenable. I am rendered about as excited for the album as I was before I clicked the link, because I still have no idea how it's going to sound.


Sounds like you need better speakers Laughing


I listened on the same headphones I use as monitors when I record myself. It was painful. The compression-produced distortion stood out most on Stacy's voice, but I could hear it over everything else too, like a glistening haze of Amazon's laziness--they, like MySpace, cram their sample tracks down to 48-64 kbps to save on server space. When you do that to a song that's already quite loud and compressed (as Tyler's waveforms illustrate), it just sounds like crap. Maybe you need better speakers?

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wilsmith
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I listened to it via earbuds from my sansa clip, and maybe my hearing is shot after years of music at high volume, but oh well... i was able to make out everything sans distortion, with most of the sonic elements being very clear and distinct, electric and acoustic guitar, piano, strings, background vocals, bass, percussion. It all sounded pretty good to me, and yeah, it was "produced" to an Aaron Sprinkle-Level Sheen, but I like his production. Oh well. Neutral

Well I guess the enthusiasm you could have had went west on 70 (or 44 I think?) and landed in St. Louis County

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robotjellyfish
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wilsmith wrote:

Well I guess the enthusiasm you could have had went west on 70 (or 44 I think?) and landed in St. Louis County


True that!

I'm just glad to have any clips at all! I'm so pumped now.

Mr. Moon sounds amazing so far. AHH I can't wait!!!
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boone
Vintage Newbie


DRMS_7888 wrote:
The empirical data sheds a bit more light on the compression issue.


I wouldn't call that empirical data; it's zoomed out way too far. It's like looking at a forest on Google maps and saying that's enough proof to say that the tree trunks are gray.

It is a good visual tool to show how different music is mixed and mastered these days, and that's always appreciative. Smile

Quote:
Compression works by squashing down the louder parts of a sound mix in an effort to reduce the contrast in loudness. This practice can be useful in evening out poorly balanced mixes, but it can also take the power away from the drums and remove any sense of dynamic contrast a song might have had.

Actually, compression works both ways. There are settings to reduce gain (cutting down peaks in volume) and increase gain (making quiet passages louder), and there are controls to dictate how quickly these actions take place.

Used lightly, a compressor can do things like increasing overall volume of a drum track without letting the snare go into distortion territory, or to lift the volume of a guitar's decay to give the impression of much more sustain. Used heavily, it makes everything sound like it's at the same dang volume. These days. It's really annoying when the same volume is "topped out," but it wouldn't be much better if it was set at "halfway," either.

To be honest, I'm pretty impressed with that waveform of "Ambulance." I mean, it's pretty squashed, but just look at it compared to "Marvelous Things." It's just all out. All the time. The choruses are pretty big, yeah, but that's what a cacophony of noise looks like. Take a look at The Beach Boys' "Wouldn't It Be Nice" sometime; it looks pretty similar. Anyway, dynamic range refers to the difference between quiet and loud, so the difference between the verses and the choruses would be considered relatively dynamic (and a pretty good bit of rest for your ears.)

The Beatles was a pretty interesting choice to compare to, actually. Look at how compressed the drums are, just not in a loud way. The Beatles used quite a bit of compression, actually, but in an experimental way, not in a "make everything loud so you can't HELP but hear it, by God!!" sort of way. A lot of the modern ideas of compression comes from people trying to emulate the Beatles and the "modern" "sparkly" "punchy" textures they discovered when everything is kind of the same volume.

The winner for dynamic range is Sufjan. Look at those snares. Look at the rise and fall. Look at the balls-out part at the end. Gorgeous.
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wilsmith
Vintage Newbie


Okay, I'm going there...

Modern vs. Retro-Recording

As much as people want to talk about compression, from my own experiences mixing live, and later recording and "attempting" to master my own tapes DAW files:

In the past, a lot of the recording was done live, at optimal performance volume. The mix was live, the board was manned. Overdubs were matched to this mix.

Today instruments are tracked individually, and even in on the occasion that they are cut at the same time, mic'd or fed via D.I. With levels set for the highest possible signal level sans clipping.

Compression can be used to augment performances, to make "space" when it was absent because of a "Hot Mic" or pump up the volume of a "natural" performance that gets drowned out by the band/ production elements. I don't think people even "Turn Down" any more, so the dynamic range from quiet to loud has been lost for the sake of HD sound that includes on the sound of the performer, and not the room, the atmosphere.

Even solo acoustic performances are blasting cause every mic is preamped, gain cranked. The result is, when you put a few tracks together, all recorded at their peak (pre-clipping volume) even when you EQ, Pan, and adjust levels, it's hard not to get a Stereo Mix that's got little subtlety. It's all there, loud and proud, till a fade out.

If people recorded quiet "intimate" songs with low power dynamic mics (as opposed to Phantom powered Condenser Mics), live (solo, or with band), they might sound weak compared to all the preamped - direct to the board songs, and Itunes is gonna "soundcheck" em' anyways... Neutral but you can always turn that off.

So as much as compression gets flagged, I think the practice of maxing out volume on Digital recording to get maximum sound without clipping (cause of that hard ceiling it has that tape lacks) to get "usable" takes, has created the lion's share of the problem. Headroom is not a band thing, but too much can be underwhelming, it's about Balance, finding that nice through-point that lets you play with dynamics but still have compelling energy and sonic clarity.

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cynlovescandy
Vintage Newbie


In my feeble but honest opinion:

Compression is like auto tune. It's an effect. It's often used to correct small pitch/volume errors, but ultimately, it's an effect.

I've liked Eisley's sound from day one, and I'm pretty sure they've always used some compression, and pitch correction sometimes. So, I guess what I'm saying is: I don't care that it's not super-elite-indie-purist-lo-fi-whatever. It sounds good to me. Very Happy

And if I ever recorded a full length solo album, I'd probably compress the s*** out of it, because I like the sparkly-clear-in-your-face sound of it. Laughing

When it's compressed into smaller file sizes... that's a different issue. That sounds like crap.

Woo! Less than two months!

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kathymunster
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well i'm excited about the clips.
it gives me something new to hear and an idea for what the songs will be like.
really like the ones where stacy sings. she has an interesting way of saying things, or how she sings it...if that makes sense.

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boone
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wilsmith wrote:
In the past, a lot of the recording was done live, at optimal performance volume. The mix was live, the board was manned. Overdubs were matched to this mix.

Today instruments are tracked individually, and even in on the occasion that they are cut at the same time, mic'd or fed via D.I. With levels set for the highest possible signal level sans clipping.

Compression can be used to augment performances, to make "space" when it was absent because of a "Hot Mic" or pump up the volume of a "natural" performance that gets drowned out by the band/ production elements. I don't think people even "Turn Down" any more, so the dynamic range from quiet to loud has been lost for the sake of HD sound that includes on the sound of the performer, and not the room, the atmosphere.

Wil, you're forgetting that dynamics is all in the performing. If you sing a loud note, or play hard on a guitar, it'll be loud. A soft note will be quiet. Recording everything loud will actually make it more dynamic, since there'll be a bigger difference between loud and quite. Compression is not a byproduct of anything, it's very much done on purpose using very expensive, discrete equipment.

And we should all be careful not to think of heavily compressed audio as "HD" or "hifi," because by default compression lowers "definition" or "fidelity," or however you'd like to describe it. That's why your every day person may not notice it, or even prefer it, but it drives audiophiles nuts.

cynlovescandy wrote:
In my feeble but honest opinion:

Compression is like auto tune. It's an effect. It's often used to correct small pitch/volume errors, but ultimately, it's an effect.

I've liked Eisley's sound from day one, and I'm pretty sure they've always used some compression, and pitch correction sometimes. So, I guess what I'm saying is: I don't care that it's not super-elite-indie-purist-lo-fi-whatever. It sounds good to me. Very Happy

And if I ever recorded a full length solo album, I'd probably compress the s*** out of it, because I like the sparkly-clear-in-your-face sound of it. Laughing

That's fine, just don't go full Death Magnetic, so my ears can have a bit of rest. Wink
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wilsmith
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Ah... yes, dynamics is in the performing, but my experience has been that even Whispers are recorded and peak volume these days and the production approach has been to "Manufacture" dynamic range in the mix, and maximize value and sterility in studio performance, at least as far as mainstream production. People used to fall in love with organic environments and the way the colored sounds and performances, now you just called them up in a digi-effects unit and run the raw uncolored sound through it to get the desired result.

I think in general this is a Pro-Tools based adaptation because it's easier to edit digitally that way and "punch-in" overdubs and past tracks with the most dialed up and uncolored performance of the raw take of said instrument (particularly vocals). That's just what I've seen. Now Atmosphere and location recording is for extravagant or "arty" artists Razz

and yeah, that RS article on Death Magnetic was good stuff when that came out, got a lot of talking about the "Howard Benson" sound as it where. I blame Korn specifically. They ruined music by making EVERY instrument sound like Percussion. And yet, I own ZERO Metallica, and for some reason Interlibrary Loaned every release from Load down on a lark. I did like the stuff off Load and Reload a little. I think it's to compensate for Interlibrary Loaning near every R.E.M. album, at least all the ones without sounds titled Shiny Happy People, What's the Frequency Kenneth or Everybody Hurts on em' Wink

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The Man In The Moon
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so according to twitter, a radio played smarter. i wonder if anyone recorded it. haha
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wilsmith
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^Wouldn't it be funny if it was just some dude, in a parking lot, with a Boombox, playing Smarter on his radio Mr. Green

This is gonna be a great "Anti-Valentines Day" record, a couple weeks after the fact...

and I remember they said around Fire Kites that the album had an arch or sorts, or that's how it was planned then. What gets me is that it ends on such a sad sad not, not musically sad as in poor, but somber and melacholy, cause I like Ambulance alot, but dagnabit if that doesn't make The Valley Eisley's Empire Strikes Back or Samauri Epic... The good guys barely survive, if they are lucky, to live to tell the tale.

I'm one for flipping the sonic bird at the end, and going down swinging, but meh, who am I Neutral

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The_Paronomasial_Mattoid
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Podcast featuring Smarter

http://www.kdge.com/pages/ac.html

Click on the link after Listen to Part 3 that says "Click Here". It starts at about 0:45.

I'm liking it a lot, like, a whole lot. The beginning is reminding me a little of "Sea King" with the organ coming in but it definitely takes a different direction. I love the bridge and the effect on Stacy's vocals during it, too. It's been on repeat since I found the link, I'm not gonna lie.

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is there a difference between dubstep and techno?
you know besides the name?

techno: uhnd chik uhnd chik uhnd chik uhnd chik
dubstep: BOOM Chik.. Boom Boom Boom Chik.. PEOOOWWwwww BOOM BOWowoWOWoWOWow zipzipzipzipzipwoowooowoow EEEEEeeeeeerrr BOOM BOOM BOOM Splat!
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DRMS_7888
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boone wrote:

Actually, compression works both ways. There are settings to reduce gain (cutting down peaks in volume) and increase gain (making quiet passages louder), and there are controls to dictate how quickly these actions take place.

Used lightly, a compressor can do things like increasing overall volume of a drum track without letting the snare go into distortion territory, or to lift the volume of a guitar's decay to give the impression of much more sustain. Used heavily, it makes everything sound like it's at the same dang volume. These days. It's really annoying when the same volume is "topped out," but it wouldn't be much better if it was set at "halfway," either.

To be honest, I'm pretty impressed with that waveform of "Ambulance." I mean, it's pretty squashed, but just look at it compared to "Marvelous Things." It's just all out. All the time. The choruses are pretty big, yeah, but that's what a cacophony of noise looks like. Take a look at The Beach Boys' "Wouldn't It Be Nice" sometime; it looks pretty similar. Anyway, dynamic range refers to the difference between quiet and loud, so the difference between the verses and the choruses would be considered relatively dynamic (and a pretty good bit of rest for your ears.)

The Beatles was a pretty interesting choice to compare to, actually. Look at how compressed the drums are, just not in a loud way. The Beatles used quite a bit of compression, actually, but in an experimental way, not in a "make everything loud so you can't HELP but hear it, by God!!" sort of way. A lot of the modern ideas of compression comes from people trying to emulate the Beatles and the "modern" "sparkly" "punchy" textures they discovered when everything is kind of the same volume.

The winner for dynamic range is Sufjan. Look at those snares. Look at the rise and fall. Look at the balls-out part at the end. Gorgeous.


You are definitely more knowledgeable on the subject than I. I was aware that compressors can bring up lows and squash down highs independently, but I neglected to mention it (mostly because I rarely use that, =P).

I was impressed to see some semblance of dynamic range in Ambulance, but it was still quite wall-o-soundish throughout the chorus.

When I listen to The Beatles, I don't necessarily hear the drums as heavily compressed, but simply poorly mic'ed and really low in the mix. I remember reading somewhere that for some of the earlier Beatles records they just used an overhead and kick mic for the drums. I chose The Beatles track because it's a good example of dynamic contrast throughout different sections of the song. I also carelessly dumped the left channel for each song, and I didn't check to see if the drums were mixed through the center or not.

The spikes on the Sufjan track are actually digital clipping sounds in rhythm with the music. Some kind of funky sample or something. They didn't play the song in Minneapolis, so I'm not sure how they would perform it live.

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grain thrower
Vintage Newbie


With the album's release less than 2 months away, I'm not checking out any more tracks beforehand. That includes the free DL of "Smarter." I savor that 'first listen' sensation so much, I still remember where I was and what I felt during the first spin of Combinations. It's not like I need to hear the songs to decide whether to buy, either. Smile

Still, interesting to read what peeps are saying about them.

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inorbit
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cynlovescandy wrote:
In my feeble but honest opinion:
Compression is like auto tune. It's an effect. It's often used to correct small pitch/volume errors, but ultimately, it's an effect.

Beg to differ- not the same: Up to a point, they're both a bit cheesy... But autotune used to excess becomes daft Laughing





Got a chance to listen through the clips on a decent system (i.e. not on my crappy desktop speakers at work).

Hearing the difference between the higher quality Smarter, etc and the Amazon clips should urge caution on drawing conclusions, especially re. the production, from the Amazon samples. If I were Eisley, I'd get them taken down- I don't think they represent the tracks in a particularly flattering way.

That said, from what I can tell, the album sounds like a very mixed bag. I find it interesting that Jain hears excessive production in Smarter, but likes Please... leaves me a bit quizzical.

Fact is Eisley and producers have never mixed well on full lengths, imo. For some reason, the EP's always come out better, and the live versions are almost always outstanding, but the full lengths always end up sounding like pepsi commercials. Shame really.


Watch it Die definitely sounds interesting to my ear.
Oxygen Mask sounds like might have a bit of of potential- especially the bit just as the sample fades out.
Can't tell about Mr. Moon yet... sounds a like it might be little cheesy, but might rescue itself. It was doing well until the chorus... We'll have to see.

I can already tell I'm probably going to detest I Wish. Evokes CCM radio cheese a bit to closely for my taste- especially going into the chorus, but who knows- the release could prove me wrong. Better love seems like it might have a bit of the same problem.

Please sounds like definite TV drama placement fodder to me.... Kind of like some of filler tracks on combos. Not offensive, but maybe not so interesting.

That said, too early to tell.

I'd have pegged Sad as the single- although it looks like Smarter is getting the push- which is perilous, because people who buy the LP because of Smarter are gonna feel a bit bait-and-switched when they find out how pop-oriented most of the rest of the album is.


Wasn't originally a fan of Smarter- was hoping Chauntelle would personalize it a bit- but setting aside that one uncharacteristic Bemis-esque
guitar section, the production on it seems to fair better than most of the LP, actually. Came out surprisingly well. I've even warmed up to the guitar part a bit- its legitimate to have a co-write on an LP that sounds a bit different- just not sure that's what I'd push as a single though.

Sounds like a couple of the tracks may be a bit less production damaged than most of combinations was, but production as usual still sounds like a trainwreck involving the cheese car. Too much studio stuff, too much canned strings, etc.

It would go a long way if they would just let Chauntelle play that guitar a bit more like they used to!

But at least there doesn't seem to be anything as unlistenable as Combinations (the track) or, forbid, If You're Wondering.

Kind is still exquisite though.
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Last edited by inorbit on Wed Jan 05, 2011 1:51 pm; edited 8 times in total
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