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 Post subject: Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:23 pm 
what exactly does a green party member believe politically speaking? I always just think ultra liberals but I dont know honestly _________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - WWW.MODICOMUSIC.COM www.myspace.com/modico "even on the drearest day a loving hand won't turn away God's greatest gift to man how sweet is love" http://www.myspace.com/ambientgecko - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
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Joined: 24 Dec 2003 | Posts: 1334 | Location: Fort Worth is my home... I'm at OU now though
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:28 pm
Florencia: Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. My intent wasn't really to be sarcastic with that line, but reading over it I can see how that came across. 
joseph wrote: I'm thinking more generally, why are most Muslims apprehensive to Western culture. I'm going for the genesis of this hate for Western Culture. What does it matter - seriously? Do you think that Muslims hate western culture so much that they're willing to make violent attacks against us? If they hate our culture so much, it really wouldn't be too hard for them to keep it out of their countries. And haven't they done a fairly good job of that? swiss army romance: Yes, I believe there were political motivations behind the war. Maybe not entirely. Bush probably sincerely feels he is doing the right thing, but I think it is naive to think that a politician has no political motivations behind his actions (at any point). manchilds wrote: if we were to attack syria there still would be complaints, if we were to attack Saudi there would be complaints, if we were to attack North Korea there would be complaints That's because that would be the definition of EMPIRE. There are basic rules in place in the world, one that's been around and respected for hundreds of years is "national sovereignty". Simply put, America cannot arbitrarily pick a country to invade - regardless of our motives. "Oh, but we invaded to help them!" So what? National sovereignty stands. National sovereignty basically means that all nations are independent and equal, free within their borders to govern as they please. The only time any nation is justified in violating the national sovereignty of another is if a) their own national sovereignty was violated by that nation (i.e. Pearl Harbor) or b) such a violation is clearly imminent. When America and Britain enforce No-Fly Zones over Iraq, that is a violation of Iraq's national sovereignty. It doesn't matter if it was for "humanitarian" reasons or not - there were no UN resolutions that allowed NFZs, nor did Iraq ever cede their airspace. Consider a hypothetical example more close to home - what if Canada decided to start patrolling our airspace, for a "humanitarian" reason - "to make sure we're safe". Yeah right, that would last all of two seconds. We wouldn't allow it. Quote: then there is also the intelligence system that everybody seems so eager to debunk, which claimed that Iraq still had weapons of mass destruction...... which we KNOW did exist because saddam used them on his own people Are you referring to the "gassing his own people"? Because that's hardly the solid fact that people robotically repeat. From Iraqi power and U.S. security in the Middle East, a study published in 1990 by the Strategic Studies Institute, U.S. Army War College: ----- "In September 1988, however – a month after the war (between Iran and Iraq) had ended – the State Department abruptly, and in what many viewed as a sensational manner, condemned Iraq for allegedly using chemicals against its Kurdish population. The incident cannot be understood without some background of Iraq's relations with the Kurds...throughout the war Iraq effectively faced two enemies – Iran and elements of its own Kurdish minority. Significant numbers of the Kurds had launched a revolt against Baghdad and in the process teamed up with Tehran. As soon as the war with Iran ended, Iraq announced its determination to crush the Kurdish insurrection. It sent Republican Guards to the Kurdish area, and in the course of the operation – according to the U.S. State Department – gas was used, with the result that numerous Kurdish civilians were killed. The Iraqi government denied that any such gassing had occurred. Nonetheless, Secretary of State Schultz stood by U.S. accusations, and the U.S. Congress, acting on its own, sought to impose economic sanctions on Baghdad as a violator of the Kurds' human rights. Having looked at all the evidence that was available to us, we find it impossible to confirm the State Department's claim that gas was used in this instance. To begin with, there were never any victims produced. International relief organizations who examined the Kurds – in Turkey where they had gone for asylum – failed to discover any. Nor were there ever any found inside Iraq. The claim rests solely on testimony of the Kurds who had crossed the border into Turkey, where they were interviewed by staffers of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee... It appears that in seeking to punish Iraq, the Congress was influenced by another incident that occurred five months earlier in another Iraqi-Kurdish city, Halabjah. In March 1988, the Kurds at Halabjah were bombarded with chemical weapons, producing many deaths. Photographs of the Kurdish victims were widely disseminated in the international media. Iraq was blamed for the Halabjah attack, even though it was subsequently brought out that Iran too had used chemicals in this operation and it seemed likely that it was the Iranian bombardment that had actually killed the Kurds. Thus, in our view, the Congress acted more on the basis of emotionalism than factual information, and without sufficient thought for the adverse diplomatic effects of its action." ----- Iraq, Claim vs. Reality [I couldn't find this actual report online, however it has been cited in numerous places and I found a way to contact the authors who will send you the report. I'll probably contact them to get a copy.] ambientgecko wrote: My main reason for posting so much on this thread is that I don't want people to make the decision to vote for the wrong person. Neither candidate is perfect, but it's a lot harder for me to follow Kerry than Bush. So you admit your reasoning is essentially political here. You want to persuade people to vote for Bush instead of Kerry. You neglect the fact that there are more than two choices for who to vote for, and it is this mindset that we need to really get over in this country. Let's not vote for "the lesser of two evils", because we're still voting for "evil". The article you quoted is here: http://slate.msn.com/id/2088214 [please cite when you're quoting an article!] In "fairness", there's a similar article about Bush's alleged flip flops here: http://slate.msn.com/id/2088226 Another intriguing read from Ron Paul: Questions that won't be asked about Iraq Another editorial involving the earlier citation: Did Saddam gas his own people? _________________ "The revolution starts today, not tomorrow." :: got g-Love? |
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 12:54 pm
gregor, assuming you actually will go vote, are you going to put your money where your mouth is and not vote for kerry just cause you want bush out of office? |
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 1:51 pm
democrat, of course. _________________ lovesick on a sunny afternoon leave those bees alone! |
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 2:16 pm
I like what the canadians are doing. We need a prime minster. |
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 5:15 pm
What the canadians are doing? You mean like legalizing pot? YEAH! More power to samuraiman  _________________ An apt and true reply was given to Alexander the Great by a pirate who had been seized. For when that king had asked the man what he meant by keeping hostile possession of the sea, he answered with bold pride. 'What thou meanest by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, whilst thou who dost it with a great fleet art styled emperor." Noam Chomsky |
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:02 pm
Stephen wrote: gregor, assuming you actually will go vote, are you going to put your money where your mouth is and not vote for kerry just cause you want bush out of office? I hope I was clear previously, but I understand this is a long thread so you might not have read what I wrote previously. To answer your question, no, I won't be voting for anyone "just to get Bush out of office". I will vote for someone that I can support fully. I am no longer a proponent of voting for "the lesser of two evils." I don't "just want Bush out of office." I want someone in office who understands how this country is supposed to work and takes their oath to uphold and defend the Constitution seriously. That means reading the Constitution, understanding it (it's not difficult), and abiding by it. Bush and Kerry are both politicians, which I honestly think means they don't care much at all for the Constitution, but political power instead. They have both demonstrated their lack of concern for and/or lack of understanding of the Constitution in this Iraq war incident alone. _________________ "The revolution starts today, not tomorrow." :: got g-Love? |
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2004 8:33 pm
Not to go any further...  _________________ An apt and true reply was given to Alexander the Great by a pirate who had been seized. For when that king had asked the man what he meant by keeping hostile possession of the sea, he answered with bold pride. 'What thou meanest by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, whilst thou who dost it with a great fleet art styled emperor." Noam Chomsky |
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Joined: 01 Jan 2004 | Posts: 1738 | Location: in this fake plastic world
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 4:29 am
i really want to legitimize my position as middle-of-the-road on a lot of things, but i find myself posting on the side of the republicans in this thread... my cynical side thinks it's funny when people "opposed" to bush and war go "why iraq? why aren't we attacking n. korea? why don't we attack sudan? shouldn't we be attacking syria?" hold your horses, they can all take turns... :) yes, i'm kiddding..... it's just twisted-ly funny to me. _________________ -Levi http://www.leviweaver.com |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2004 | Posts: 465 | Location: Nashville, TN / Birmingham, England
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 7:49 am
gRegor wrote: Stephen wrote: gregor, assuming you actually will go vote, are you going to put your money where your mouth is and not vote for kerry just cause you want bush out of office? I hope I was clear previously, but I understand this is a long thread so you might not have read what I wrote previously. To answer your question, no, I won't be voting for anyone "just to get Bush out of office". I will vote for someone that I can support fully. I am no longer a proponent of voting for "the lesser of two evils." I don't "just want Bush out of office." I want someone in office who understands how this country is supposed to work and takes their oath to uphold and defend the Constitution seriously. That means reading the Constitution, understanding it (it's not difficult), and abiding by it. Bush and Kerry are both politicians, which I honestly think means they don't care much at all for the Constitution, but political power instead. They have both demonstrated their lack of concern for and/or lack of understanding of the Constitution in this Iraq war incident alone. thank you gregor. i lot a lot of respect for that. You dont know how many green party or libertarian kids that i used to talk to at school and even now who would go nuts about their respective parties and their policies. Then you ask them who they are voting for, and they are voting democrat or republican just cause they dont think their guy has a chance to win. |
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:01 am
It's all the same to me. I don't pay enough attention to any of this to even be able to say who I would vote for, had I been of legal age. _________________ my name's carrie and i love a good sandwich so if you have a sandwich, come roll with me! 
i'm gonna marry the mars volta. |
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:28 am
Airweaver: I don't think people opposed to Bush say: Why Iraq, meaning let's go attack somebody else. They mean why attack Iraq. Not why attack Iraq If that makes any sense to anybody else besides me... _________________ An apt and true reply was given to Alexander the Great by a pirate who had been seized. For when that king had asked the man what he meant by keeping hostile possession of the sea, he answered with bold pride. 'What thou meanest by seizing the whole earth; but because I do it with a petty ship, I am called a robber, whilst thou who dost it with a great fleet art styled emperor." Noam Chomsky |
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:31 am
gRegor wrote: Let's not vote for "the lesser of two evils", because we're still voting for "evil".
So should we not vote at all?? Honestly I don't think Bush is evil or Kerry is evil, I just have more faith that Bush will do what is right. He will make mistakes but I have a lot more faith in the way he handles himself then how I see Kerry right now. Not to mention I agree with a lot more of Bush's stances when it comes to other issues. I just hope that everyone looks at all the facts before making a decision. It shouldn't be voting for Bush or voting against Bush, and that's what it seems to be. It seems like people dont want to vote for Kerry or for Nader, just against Bush. I find that very unsettling. _________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - WWW.MODICOMUSIC.COM www.myspace.com/modico "even on the drearest day a loving hand won't turn away God's greatest gift to man how sweet is love" http://www.myspace.com/ambientgecko - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
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Joined: 24 Dec 2003 | Posts: 1334 | Location: Fort Worth is my home... I'm at OU now though
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:33 am
Florencia wrote: What the canadians are doing? You mean like legalizing pot?
YEAH! More power to samuraiman Thank you! Come again. |
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2004 8:41 am
Florencia wrote: Airweaver:
I don't think people opposed to Bush say: Why Iraq, meaning let's go attack somebody else. They mean why attack Iraq. Not why attack Iraq If that makes any sense to anybody else besides me... It would be great if we didn't have to attack anyone, but as long as there is evil in the world you just can't get around it. You can either sit back and let someone attack you, or you can let evil prevail. I hate using the word "evil" b/c people get all upset and blah blah, but honestly look at the world around you. We are surrounded by so much evil. Every time we turn on the news we hear about murder, rape, drug use, etc. Not only that we hear of suicide bombings and terrorist attacks. If we decided to never hurt anyones feelings or never fight what's right, these problems would only get worse. I'm thankful that America took a stand against "evil", I wish we would take more stands against here at home too. I need to go get ready for prom. Later people. _________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - WWW.MODICOMUSIC.COM www.myspace.com/modico "even on the drearest day a loving hand won't turn away God's greatest gift to man how sweet is love" http://www.myspace.com/ambientgecko - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
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Joined: 24 Dec 2003 | Posts: 1334 | Location: Fort Worth is my home... I'm at OU now though
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Laughing City Forum Index -> General -> Republican or Democrat
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