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 Post subject: Posted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:11 pm 
Pantheon4 wrote: You see... I don't really think that Goth is a 'scene' anymore. It's more like a shade laid over a larger genre. It's just that the 'nu-punk' bands are calling it 'emo'. ..hmmmm, I can get with that, it explains Avenged Sevenfold and their ilk... which always makes me think of Giraffes!!! I think of Goth and I think Tim Burton & Neil Gaiman. That's my stereotype right there. Girls who dress like Lydia or Death, guys who dress like any Johnny Depp character you can think of besides Cpt. Jack Sparrow, Anime characters, or any Male lead from the first incarnation of 90210. Goth as far as music goes... well, the whole New Romantic thing was pretty closely related to me as far as I knew, and Industrial too, but really, it's gonna always exist so long as Depeche Mode and the Cure make records. I think they represent the Keyboard and Guitar extremes of the music very well, and still maintain that overall aesthetic. So others paint with the colors, borrowing from the best, but I think it's still out here. But to support your argument, I will give you some good evidence that I can't refute, just out of kindness: (HorrorCore Hip Hop, look it up if you've never heard of it) the good 
the bad 
the UGLY 
But what you say about Goth is pretty much what I feel is the distinction between 90's Emo v Y2K Emo, so there you go 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ and I am seriously let down Y2k emo is getting any votes at all 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _________________ yup, that's my name. FOR YOUR RATING PLEASURE: 4 LIKE Buttons, 1 NEUTRAL, 1 VEXED, 5 DISLIKE buttons. LC > FB         
 = personal fave  = Eisley fans should dig it
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:46 am
Yeah, but you can't forget that the scene that your talking about borrowed from the Doors, Jimi Hendrix, and the Beatles. Not to mention a the glam influence like Roxy Music, Bowie, T. Rex, et cetera. Lately I've been calling the late 70s and early 80s Goth bands "Post-Psychedelic Glam Noir". 
But I wouldn't say that PPGN and New Romantic were one in the same they just shared a similar root-- glam bands from the 70s. PPGN is really more of a goth take on Post-Punk. Anyway, it's just a shade that's going to be there-- like there's going to be a Christian form of whatever's popular. _________________ Power is only pain It’s probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. "Can we get control of an individual to the point where he will do our bidding against his will and even against fundamental laws of nature, such as self preservation?" -memo from 1952 Project ARTICHOKE 
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:11 am
I can see those names you mentioned, musically, I can't see it happening without Brian Eno, if I have to name one central figure or lynchpin. Not saying he is the source, but his influence was key musically, along with John Cale for that matter. What the music writers of the world need to do is consult a dictionary or encyclopedia before coining terms actually: Gothic –adjective 1. (usually initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a style of architecture, originating in France in the middle of the 12th century and existing in the western half of Europe through the middle of the 16th century, characterized by the use of the pointed arch and the ribbed vault, by the use of fine woodwork and stonework, by a progressive lightening of structure, and by the use of such features as flying buttresses, ornamental gables, crockets, and foils. 2. (usually initial capital letter) pertaining to or designating the style of painting, sculpture, etc., produced between the 13th and 15th centuries, esp. in northern Europe, characterized by a tendency toward realism and interest in detail. 3. (initial capital letter) of or pertaining to Goths or their language. 4. (usually initial capital letter) of or pertaining to the music, esp. of northern Europe, of the period roughly from 1200 to 1450, including that of the Ars Antiqua, Ars Nova, and the Burgundian school. 5. (usually initial capital letter) pertaining to the Middle Ages; medieval. 6. (sometimes initial capital letter) barbarous or crude. 7. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a style of literature characterized by a gloomy setting, grotesque, mysterious, or violent events, and an atmosphere of degeneration and decay: 19th-century gothic novels. 8. (initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to the alphabetical script introduced for the writing of Gothic by Ulfilas and derived by him from Greek uncials with the addition of some Latin and some invented letters. 9. (often initial capital letter) being of a genre of contemporary fiction typically relating the experiences of an often ingenuous heroine imperiled, as at an old mansion, where she typically becomes involved with a stern or mysterious but attractive man. –noun 10. (usually initial capital letter) the arts and crafts of the Gothic period. 11. (initial capital letter) the extinct Germanic language of the Goths, preserved esp. in the 4th-century translation by Ulfilas of the Bible. Abbreviation: Goth, Goth., goth. 12. (often initial capital letter) a story, play, film, or other work in the gothic style. 13. (usually initial capital letter) British. black letter. 14. (often initial capital letter) a square-cut printing type without serifs or hairlines. _________________ yup, that's my name. FOR YOUR RATING PLEASURE: 4 LIKE Buttons, 1 NEUTRAL, 1 VEXED, 5 DISLIKE buttons. LC > FB
= personal fave = Eisley fans should dig it
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:15 am
wilsmith wrote: I can see those names you mentioned, musically, I can't see it happening without Brian Eno, if I have to name one central figure or lynchpin. Not saying he is the source, but his influence was key musically, along with John Cale for that matter.
What the music writers of the world need to do is consult a dictionary or encyclopedia before coining terms actually: Gothic –adjective 1. (usually initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a style of architecture, originating in France in the middle of the 12th century and existing in the western half of Europe through the middle of the 16th century, characterized by the use of the pointed arch and the ribbed vault, by the use of fine woodwork and stonework, by a progressive lightening of structure, and by the use of such features as flying buttresses, ornamental gables, crockets, and foils. 2. (usually initial capital letter) pertaining to or designating the style of painting, sculpture, etc., produced between the 13th and 15th centuries, esp. in northern Europe, characterized by a tendency toward realism and interest in detail. 3. (initial capital letter) of or pertaining to Goths or their language. 4. (usually initial capital letter) of or pertaining to the music, esp. of northern Europe, of the period roughly from 1200 to 1450, including that of the Ars Antiqua, Ars Nova, and the Burgundian school. 5. (usually initial capital letter) pertaining to the Middle Ages; medieval. 6. (sometimes initial capital letter) barbarous or crude. 7. (often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a style of literature characterized by a gloomy setting, grotesque, mysterious, or violent events, and an atmosphere of degeneration and decay: 19th-century gothic novels. 8. (initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to the alphabetical script introduced for the writing of Gothic by Ulfilas and derived by him from Greek uncials with the addition of some Latin and some invented letters. 9. (often initial capital letter) being of a genre of contemporary fiction typically relating the experiences of an often ingenuous heroine imperiled, as at an old mansion, where she typically becomes involved with a stern or mysterious but attractive man. –noun 10. (usually initial capital letter) the arts and crafts of the Gothic period. 11. (initial capital letter) the extinct Germanic language of the Goths, preserved esp. in the 4th-century translation by Ulfilas of the Bible. Abbreviation: Goth, Goth., goth. 12. (often initial capital letter) a story, play, film, or other work in the gothic style. 13. (usually initial capital letter) British. black letter. 14. (often initial capital letter) a square-cut printing type without serifs or hairlines. Meh, http://www.scathe.demon.co.uk/histgoth.htm _________________ Power is only pain It’s probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. "Can we get control of an individual to the point where he will do our bidding against his will and even against fundamental laws of nature, such as self preservation?" -memo from 1952 Project ARTICHOKE
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:56 am
There's good stuff on there, but there's a bias towards the artists he wants to prop up by not acknowledging they had contemporaries, and by slapping other labels on other acts. Bauhaus I can't argue with, but they were 4th in line. That's like saying the Sex Pistols were the first punk band, and the Ramones, NY Dolls, let alone the Stooges or MC5 had nothing to do with it? But yeah, it's a good self-referential site for musicologists, but what I meant by consulting a dictionary is - there was already Gothic Music and Art, reusing the term in a foreign and nebulous context only creates confusion and dilutes the meaning of it. If I remember from my Latin studies, Caesar mentions the Goths during the Gallic Wars, but maybe I'm thinking of Druids??? I just remember him talking about their rituals. _________________ yup, that's my name. FOR YOUR RATING PLEASURE: 4 LIKE Buttons, 1 NEUTRAL, 1 VEXED, 5 DISLIKE buttons. LC > FB
= personal fave = Eisley fans should dig it
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:21 am
wilsmith wrote: There's good stuff on there, but there's a bias towards the artists he wants to prop up by not acknowledging they had contemporaries, and by slapping other labels on other acts. Bauhaus I can't argue with, but they were 4th in line. That's like saying the Sex Pistols were the first punk band, and the Ramones, NY Dolls, let alone the Stooges or MC5 had nothing to do with it?
But yeah, it's a good self-referential site for musicologists, but what I meant by consulting a dictionary is - there was already Gothic Music and Art, reusing the term in a foreign and nebulous context only creates confusion and dilutes the meaning of it. If I remember from my Latin studies, Caesar mentions the Goths during the Gallic Wars, but maybe I'm thinking of Druids??? I just remember him talking about their rituals. The Ostrogoths (eastern Goths) and Visigoths (western Goths) were a Germanic tribe(s). It's funny because the words Goth, good, and God all come from the same lingusitic root. Anyway, the way people used 'gothic' prior to the 1980s for music was an adjective-- a way to describe music like 'bittersweet'. The music press turned it into a noun when they used it as a genre name it became a noun like Heavy Metal. That said I wouldn't put all my trust in dictionaries look at this entry for "Heavy Metal": heavy metal –noun 1. any metal with a specific gravity of 5.0 or greater, esp. one that is toxic to organisms, as lead, mercury, copper, and cadmium. 2. aggressive and heavily amplified rock music, commonly performed by groups that wear spectacular or bizarre costumes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Origin: 1860–65, for literal sense Related forms: heavy-metal, adjective Dictionary.com Unabridged Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009. What is this? 1987? _________________ Power is only pain It’s probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. "Can we get control of an individual to the point where he will do our bidding against his will and even against fundamental laws of nature, such as self preservation?" -memo from 1952 Project ARTICHOKE
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:31 am
I need something to help recover from the ICP picture ... bad memories. I had blocked them out. _________________ My photography:www.jamiemphoto.com You can't spell awesome without emo...backwards! -Julie definingawesome (11:44:11 PM): Eisley shivers our timbers |
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Post subject: *Edited, to add "Robustness"* Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:33 am
(at both posts)
Pantheon4 wrote: that said I wouldn't put all my trust in dictionaries look at this entry for "Heavy Metal"...What is this? 1987? but that's a good example of Modern music grandfathering in labels from related and unrelated styles of music. As far as Metal, uhm... Full Sleeves, face tattoos and piercing galore are making the bands look more like Gwar come to life than ever, so it's not a stretch of the imagination... I think the diss that site gave to New Romantic kinda brushed over the fact that the advent of the Analog and Digital Synth made classically based arrangements accessible to individuals and bands when before you you had to hire strings and an arranger. That allowed for all the affectations and movements of the varying periods of classical music to seep in, be it Baroque, Romantic, or Impressionistic. There were some artists who genuinely were cribbing Gothic music in that regard. But by and large, when you hear Gothic now, it's not describing the music so much as the fascination with mourning and morbidity. So, I guess I just feel compelled to badger music journalists to just make up new names or tack "Born-On" dates to their sub-genres and cultural revivals, cause you it's out gotten out of hand. And via that site again... How is Robert Smith NOT GOTH!!! _________________ yup, that's my name. FOR YOUR RATING PLEASURE: 4 LIKE Buttons, 1 NEUTRAL, 1 VEXED, 5 DISLIKE buttons. LC > FB
= personal fave = Eisley fans should dig it
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Post subject: Re: *Edited, to add "Robustness"* Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:12 am
wilsmith wrote: (at both posts)
Pantheon4 wrote: that said I wouldn't put all my trust in dictionaries look at this entry for "Heavy Metal"...What is this? 1987? but that's a good example of Modern music grandfathering in labels from related and unrelated styles of music. As far as Metal, uhm... Full Sleeves, face tattoos and piercing galore are making the bands look more like Gwar come to life than ever, so it's not a stretch of the imagination... I think the diss that site gave to New Romantic kinda brushed over the fact that the advent of the Analog and Digital Synth made classically based arrangements accessible to individuals and bands when before you you had to hire strings and an arranger. That allowed for all the affectations and movements of the varying periods of classical music to seep in, be it Baroque, Romantic, or Impressionistic. There were some artists who genuinely were cribbing Gothic music in that regard. But by and large, when you hear Gothic now, it's not describing the music so much as the fascination with mourning and morbidity. So, I guess I just feel compelled to badger music journalists to just make up new names or tack "Born-On" dates to their sub-genres and cultural revivals, cause you it's out gotten out of hand. And via that site again... How is Robert Smith NOT GOTH!!! Most of the good PPGN artists faught tooth and nail to not be 'goth'. But the fact of the matter is that the media is largely responsible for genres. Hell, for the longest time Ozzy hated being 'Heavy Metal'. And we cannot forget Alan Freed. Your point about classical gothic music neglects that gothic meant "crass" for a long time. Esp. when applied to architecture. Goth tribes were barbarians, ergo uncivilized. And when applied to literature, initially gothic literature was seen in the late 18th cent. as crass women's books. It's only in the mid-19th cent. that people started to take the genre more seriously. And still what they called 'gothic' we'd probably just call 'horror' today. Then later you get 'Southern gothic' with Faulkner. Then 'Suburban gothic'... so in the 20th cent. it started to mean 'dark' and/or 'bizarre'. But if we really want to split hairs about 'goths', what about Charles Addams? He hung out in grave yards, drew macabre pictures, hung out in old creepy buildings. Then he grew up became a cartoonist for the New Yorker and created the Addams family. Morticia Adams was actually Charles's vision of an ideal woman. Hell, he married his last wife in a pet cemetery! TheAntrider wrote: I need something to help recover from the ICP picture ... bad memories. I had blocked them out. Who's goin' titty huntin'?! We's goin' titty huntin'! Who's going titty $#@!'?! We's goin' titty $#@!'! _________________ Power is only pain It’s probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. "Can we get control of an individual to the point where he will do our bidding against his will and even against fundamental laws of nature, such as self preservation?" -memo from 1952 Project ARTICHOKE
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:32 am
"Rage Rock???" ...awww come on...
ICP were a lame-ass Horror Core Rap Group that didn't get accepted in the hip hop community and road the coat tails of Nu-Metal to some success. And Horror-Core was a way to make non-gangster rappers are scary as the Gangster-Rappers who were popular back then. Good find on the PBS series though. Sad thing is, their angle on Limp Biskit applies to any band that thinks they're going against the grain of what's accepted and finds themselves making a viable living, and moreso a fortune selling their music to the masses. Oh, and the Addams family, that might be the  of this thread. Pretty dead on! _________________ yup, that's my name. FOR YOUR RATING PLEASURE: 4 LIKE Buttons, 1 NEUTRAL, 1 VEXED, 5 DISLIKE buttons. LC > FB
= personal fave = Eisley fans should dig it
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:16 am
The Merchants of Cool is one of my favorite Frontlines. It explains so much. To apply it to this thread... It was why in 1999, American Pie's soundtrack had so much pop-punk on it, when the only big pop-punk band back then was Blink 182. _________________ Power is only pain It’s probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. "Can we get control of an individual to the point where he will do our bidding against his will and even against fundamental laws of nature, such as self preservation?" -memo from 1952 Project ARTICHOKE
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:54 pm
It begins and ends with the mid-90's Deep Elm line-up. _________________ Audioscrobbler Now 
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:23 am
Paranoid Android v2.0 wrote: It begins and ends with the mid-90's Deep Elm line-up. Yeah, and the NFL started in a car dealership in Canton. Oh, wait... _________________ Power is only pain It’s probably better to have him inside the tent pissing out, than outside the tent pissing in. "Can we get control of an individual to the point where he will do our bidding against his will and even against fundamental laws of nature, such as self preservation?" -memo from 1952 Project ARTICHOKE
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:14 am
Pantheon4 wrote: Paranoid Android v2.0 wrote: It begins and ends with the mid-90's Deep Elm line-up. Yeah, and the NFL started in a car dealership in Canton. Oh, wait... I don't understand your metaphor. _________________ Audioscrobbler Now
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Post subject: Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:28 pm
A: HOW IS THIS POLL TIED, COME ON!! 
B: This band I like Telescreen (Codeseven minus their lead singer + the lead singer of A Classic Case) started a online music mag that did a small feature on what emo was and is, pretty funny: 
Oh, and this whole thing was a build up for me to start a list of newer bands that are more like Vintage 90's Emo than anything else out these days that I can think of, but I don't know if anyone calls them Emo these days: As Cities Burn the Classic Crime Circa Survive Brand New the Velvet Teen & The New Trust the Receiving End of Sirens Saosin Terminal Search the City Anybody got anymore of that sort??? This is probably my favorite modern music as far as intensity and I love digging up more bands of this sort. There are others I would include, but they have either broken up, or changed sounds after a couple of records and are more mellow or poppy these days (Copeland, Vedera, As Tall As Lions, etc...) _________________ yup, that's my name. FOR YOUR RATING PLEASURE: 4 LIKE Buttons, 1 NEUTRAL, 1 VEXED, 5 DISLIKE buttons. LC > FB
= personal fave = Eisley fans should dig it
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